Peter Dupont:以下简称 Peter baristaguildoftaiwan.org:以下简称BGT BGT：What inspired you to be a roaster in coffee industry? 怎么进来这一行的? Peter：There were two steps in this. Firstly back in 1998 I had my first cup of Specialty Coffee which really opened my eyes. Before having tasted Specialty Coffee when some one said ‘oh this is a nice cup of coffee’ I couldn’t really remember it to be so much better than the other coffees I had tasted. But in 1998 I by luck got a job at Dromedar Kaffebar in Bergen, Norway who had Specialty Coffee from Solberg Hansen. They gave me the first tasting of Specialty Coffee and the flavour impressions made a huge impact on me. There were so many different flavours in the coffees from the different countries that Solberg Hansen had roasted, that a new world opened up to me. From this experience I was ‘hooked on Specialty Coffee’. After I came back from Norway to Denmark I was hired at Estate Coffee to open the Estate Coffee Shop. This was the next step towards becoming a roaster. At that time all Estate Coffee was wage roasted at a larger Roasting Company. We at Estate Coffee worked a lot with the Roasting Company, but it was a hard time getting them to roast as we preferred. Luckily the Roasting Company was sold to an even bigger Swedish Roasting company at the same time as I was finished with my university studies. Therefore we decided to open our own Roastery where I became the roastmaster. So my way into roasting was partly a few lucky circumstances and partly the impression that Solberg Hansens coffees had given me. 我分成二个阶段来谈。 第一阶段要回溯到1998年，我的精品咖啡初体验让我大开眼界。在这以前当我听到有人说：『喔，这是一杯好咖啡』的时候，我都无法体会这杯咖啡跟我以前喝过的有什麽不同，好在哪裡?有多好?但是1998年我很幸运地能够在挪威卑尔根的Dromedar Kaffebar任职，这裡有Solberg Hansen烘焙公司所配合供应的精品咖啡。Dromedar给予了我对精品咖啡的第一次品嚐经验与风味印象，这对于我来说影响相当大。Solberg Hansen烘焙的精品咖啡所呈现的不同产地风貌，真正为我开启了一个新的咖啡领域。这段工作经验让我开始沉醉在精品咖啡的世界。 后来我回到丹麦受雇于Estate Coffee，这是第二个阶段，我开始往烘焙工作前进。在那时Estate Coffee所有的咖啡都交由另一家较大型的烘焙公司处理，但是毕竟不能主导烘焙出我们所喜欢的咖啡类型。很凑巧地后来这家公司被瑞典的另一家大公司购併了，在同时我也完成了我的大学课业，因此我们当下决定开设属于自己的烘焙厂，而由我总管烘焙作业。所以，我的烘焙之路有部分是因为幸运的机遇，有部分则要归功于SH的启蒙。 BGT：Please describe the espresso blend that your company won 1st place in the World Barista Championship in 2006? 谈谈贵公司赢得2006 WBC的冠军配方。 Peter：The espressoblend that Klaus and I made for his presentation at WBC 2006 came from a wish to make an espresso with less bitterness and more pure coffee aroma. Klaus came in 3rd in WBC 2004 and since that day we started preparing for his presentation two years later. At that time we had La Minita from Tarrazu in Costa Rica in our coffee menu at Estate Coffee and we were very impressed by the cleanliness and pure coffee aroma from this coffee. The problem was that the acidity got too sharp when prepared for espresso and the body not intense enough. Therefore we started looking out for some coffee that was not washed to supplement the La Minita. The big challenge was that we wanted to roast very light to avoid unnecessary bitterness and carbony tones. But when we roasted this light all the defects showed themselves much clearer in the cup. So we needed to find a coffee that was not washed but was still very clean in the coffee flavour. This was really difficult! After we had tried a lot of coffees none of them clean enough we traveled to Cerrado in Brazil to the Daterra farm. We cupped a lot of their very nice coffees and afterwards we brewed them as espresso. When we came to the Daterra Sweet Collection in the espresso cupping we were astonished – this coffee had a tremendous sweetness and body but still it was very clean. It was that sweet and creamy in the mouthfeel that it almost seem like drinking a kind of pure coffee cream (not anything like Baileys!)! So we had found our not washed coffee in the Pulped Natural Daterra Sweet Collection. But as with a good dessert the sweet cream is best combined with a fresh and aromatic flavour. In this way we combined the Daterra and La Minita coffees to get a very sweet and clean espresso with a creamy mouthfeel from Daterra and liveliness and delicate aromas from La Minita. Of course developing the right roasting strategy for this coffee was at least as long a story. In short we roasted the beans separately because they were both so refined in their own way that roasting them together made no point. We roasted them very light only to the beginning of the second pop (La Minita a bit longer into the second pop). 我与Klaus在研发2006 WBC blend的时候，发想重点是最少的苦味和最多的纯淨香味。自从Klaus在2004年得到WBC季军开始，我们立刻投入准备工作达二年之久。在当时Estate Coffee已经开始贩售La Minita，我们对它的洁淨质感和纯粹香气都留下极深刻的印象。问题是在espresso上的表现酸味太过锐利，而body强度不足，所以我们开始寻找别的非水洗豆来与La Minita做互补。这是个大挑战，因为我们希望烘焙度非常浅，来避免不必要的苦味与碳味，但是通常那麽浅的烘焙度也会让所有风味缺陷更清楚地呈现到杯子裡。所以我们不只需要一个非水洗咖啡，还要同时具备乾淨风味的特性。这真的很难。在一连串的选择尝试之后，都失败在洁淨度不够。最后来到巴西Cerrado区的Daterra农庄，我们杯测了许多好豆子，并且也用espresso冲煮来测试。Daterra Sweet Collection在杯测过程中的表现令我们惊叹，它不但有惊人的甜度与厚重body，也具备了非常乾淨的质感，整个香甜奶油般的口腔触感，就像喝到一种纯淨的咖啡乳脂。所以我们总算找到我们所要的豆子，那就是Pulped Natural Daterra Sweet Collection。一般在甜点製作上，用甜味奶油来结合新鲜、芳香的味道会是个好方法。我们也用这种方式来结合这二种咖啡，得到又甜又乾淨的espresso，不但有着Daterra乳脂般的触感，也兼具La Minita细緻又充满活力的香气。当然，开发出正确的烘焙对策这段过程是漫长的，总之我们採取的是分开烘焙再溷合的方式，Daterra的落点在二爆刚开始，Minita则是进的更深一点点。 BGT：What advice and tips do you have for a roaster who just getting start? 对于刚开始烘焙工作的朋友们，有没有甚麽建议或提示? Peter：Get good a cupping! In my point of view cupping is fundamental for every roaster. When you know how to cup you can evaluate what you are doing at the roaster and then get better from experimenting with blends, roast profiles and strategies. 做好杯测的工作!我的观念裡，杯测是每个烘焙师必须的基本功。学会杯测表示你有能力去评估配方调製、烘焙曲线与规划烘焙策略。 BGT：You are a great roaster and also a well experienced barista, what kind of ability do you think a roaster should have? And how to learn? And how a roaster communicate with a barista? 你是个好烘焙师同时也是经验老道的barista，你觉得烘焙师该具备什么能力?怎么学习?又如何与barista沟通? Peter：This is really a difficult question – I think that you need a lot of different skills to be a roaster. Cupping is fundamental but as a roaster it is also important to know your beans and your equipment. But I also think it is equally important to know your coffee colleagues! One of the great differences between coffee and other gourmet products especially like wine is that it is not ‘one house’ making the product. For instance in the wine business ‘the producer’ is often just ‘one house’ i.e. the Wine yard. And they more or less are entirely responsible for the quality that the consumer experiences. As a roaster you are ‘one house’ in the chain of people contributing to the quality that the consumer experiences. If you as a roaster want’s to give the consumer a good experience you are dependent on the other people in the coffee chain to also work for the same goal. Therefore you should also at best make personal relations to the baristas brewing your coffee and the farmers growing your coffee. In the long run I believe this will be the best way to secure an ongoing qualitative development of Specialty Coffee. 这确实是个困难的问题～我认为身为一个烘焙师需要许多不同的技艺与能力。杯测是最基本的，另外还要去认识咖啡豆本身跟所使用的烘焙器械，我认为瞭解你的工作同仁们也是同等重要的事情。咖啡和其他食品製作，有一点很大的不同，是咖啡并非能由一家店或是一个人独立製作而成的。例如在製酒公司裡面，绝大部分的工作通常都是集中在一个人或极少数人身上，他们完全地负责产品的品质以及消费者的感受。而咖啡业不同，如果一个烘焙师希望带给消费者好的感官体验，那你必须仰赖在这个咖啡圈子裡，为了相同目标奋斗的所有人。因此，你必须尽力联繫起咖啡栽植者与冲煮执行者之间的关係。从长远来看，我相信这是确保精品咖啡品质不断前进的最佳方法。 BGT：What kind of single overriding flavor in the espresso is the worst? And what kind of flavor is your priority choice? 哪一种味道是你觉得在espresso裡最不该出现的缺点?而哪一种风味又是你会优先选择的? Peter：Of course you can sometimes find defects that are very unpleasant but except of these to much roasty bitterness is for me killing the nice experience of espresso. If the espresso is very bitter the nice natural fragile aromas are gone and the acidity is usually also gone. 当然，你有时会发现一些非常令人不愉快的缺陷风味，但就我个人而言，太多因为烘焙造成的苦味会是espresso美味的杀手。 如果espresso非常苦，那么那些细致的天然芳香会消失，而且酸味通常也会不见。 BGT：Which one is your favorite single origin coffee? Did you use it as one of your espresso blend? Should espresso blend designed for different purpose, for example: straight shot or for cappa? Can a espresso designed for dual-used blend? 你最喜欢的单品咖啡?你会用进配方裡吗?你觉得需要因为不同的需求而设计不同配方吗，还是你觉得可以做到单喝、加奶都适用的程度? Peter：As coffee for French press I am a huge Kenya fan! Especially the intense floral aromas but also the crisp acidity and powerfull body of good Kenyan coffee is to me unique! Personally I think you do not need to make different espressoblends for different purpose. I prefer to have an espresso that is perfect as a straight shot because this will also be good in cappuccinoes. But I know that a lot of people do not agree on this and especially a lot of cafe or coffee shop owners tend to prefer a coffee that is still strong even though they put half a liter of milk on top of a single shot. Generally I believe that if you have good baristas you will get extracted a lot of flavour and this will go nicely through the milk. If people want a coffee with half a liter of milk it is because they don’t like the taste of the coffee! All that said of course people have different flavour preferences also your customers and therefore you might need to have different espressoblends to suit their preferences. 用法国压冲煮的话，我绝对是一个肯亚疯狂爱好者，特别是好的肯亚咖啡所拥有的强烈花香、清爽俐落的酸味和厚实body，都是独一无二的。 就我个人看法，我想你不需要为了不同的用途，而刻意地去调配不同的espresso配方。我会更喜欢那些直接单喝就很好喝的配方豆，因为那通常在卡布上的表现也会很不错。但我知道有很多人不认同这一点，尤其是很多咖啡店老闆喜欢调配更浓烈风味的咖啡，儘管他们老是加了500cc牛奶来折磨一份espresso single。我总是相信一个好的barista有能力萃取足够的咖啡风味，来与牛奶做出完美匹配。我觉得会喜欢咖啡加很多牛奶的人，是因为他并不喜欢咖啡本身的味道。当然每个人总是有他不同口味的偏好，你的顾客也是，因此你也许需要不同的配方豆来满足你的顾客。 BGT：We know Estate Coffee is a famous micro-roastery, coffee shop and wholesaler and you guys won great reputations，could you give some suggestion for the roaster in Taiwan? 我们知道贵公司已经是知名的小型烘焙公司、咖啡店和批发商，你们也获得了相当好的评价，你能给予同质性的业者一些建议吗? Peter：Make sure that the management have well defined ideas of where to go with specialty coffee – what are the ambitions, the goals and the strategies. I believe David Schomer said that whatever idea the management/owner of your business have regarding specialty coffee it will work its way through the business, so you might as well make it very clear for what reason your in it! Is it a passionate drive for the love of coffee or is it because there seems to be good profits in specialty coffee or something in between? And then finally a good dialog with and respect for the people who are standing daily with their hands on the coffee is essential, because they are the ones making the quality! 经营者要很明确地掌握精品咖啡潮流的趋势，有野心，有目标，有经营策略。我相信David Schomer说的：经营者对精品咖啡的态度，会影响到你的商业模式。所以你最好搞清楚你为什麽要在这一行干下去?是因为对咖啡纯粹的热爱呢?还是因为精品咖啡有利可图?还是别的原因?最后，对于那些每天站在岗位上搞咖啡的人，我们要给予绝对的尊重，因为毕竟他们都是品质的保障! BGT：In your concept, what is “slow roast” and how to define? What’s the benefit of a espresso blend from slow roast? 在你的观念裡，甚麽是『慢炒』?怎麽定义?你觉得慢炒的方式对espresso blend有甚麽好处? Peter：Well I guees the general concept of slowroast is related to the overall time the coffee stays in the roaster and it would probably generally be between 10 and 20 minutes. Just from that definition you cannot say anything general regarding the cup quality. You need to look at the roast profile more closely. You need to find the right development speed for different stages of the roast. The most important being the time from the 1st pop end until you take the coffee out of the roaster. If this is done good you will get a lot more sweetness, more distinct fragile aromas and a harder bean than if you “speedroast”. The phases before 1st pop and also the cooling phase is important to control as well – if your cooling time is too long you can still bake the coffee even though you did a perfect roast from 1st pop until you took it out of the roaster. 我想，一般对于慢炒的概念都跟烘焙总时间有关，通常说法在10-20分钟之间。从这个定义你并无法跟实际喝到的风味做出连结。你需要更进一步地严密监控烘焙曲线，判断出每个烘焙阶段所需要的正确发展速度。第一爆结束后，到整个烘焙结束，这段是最为关键重要的部分。这段做的好，可以让你得到相对于快速烘焙模式有更高的甜度、更多清晰分明的细緻香气。进入第一爆之前，和烘焙结束的冷却过程也都是很重要的。如果冷却时间过长，豆子仍然有自焙的情形，都是会让你前功尽弃的。 BGT：How about The 2006 WBC champion effect Estate coffee? In business point view, did you think a roaster company should attend WBC? 2006 WBC冠军为贵公司带来什么影响?从生意面来看，你觉得烘焙公司应该参与WBC吗? Peter：The 2006 WBC Championship gave some media attention to Estate which also hade an effect on the sales. This hopefully never should be the sole motivation for attending the WBC, but of course there is a potential marketing effect I gaining such a title. Even though the news value of a Danish World Barista Champion is quite worn out these years;-) 2006 WBC冠军为Estate Coffee带来一些说大不大，说小也不小的关注，这也多少有一些销售上作用。我当然希望这不会是参加WBC唯一的动机，尽管得到这个头衔的确会有一个潜在的销售效应。何况丹麦拿冠军的新闻价值在这几年已经消耗殆尽了